The debate is over. [Archive] - Baltimore Ravens Forums and Message Boards

TTRaven

08-15-2006, 05:17 PM

Did you see the vid of Boller on the frontpage of 24x7. The wounded duck that was intercepted.Man,that was a thing of beauty.I believe Boller is now,where Redman was when Boller took over.Shot to pieces on the inside.
Sad to see,but who said life was kind?

I agree, he does seem to be where Redman was. He looks like a defeated man. It's a real shame to see that. Boller is the type of player that you want to root hard for. He's a very likeable guy who was put into a bad situation here in Baltimore. Brian Billick should have never forced Kyle Boller into the starting line-up. He needs to go somewhere else and get a fresh start.

StingerNLG

08-15-2006, 05:30 PM

I say Kansas City will be the perfect spot for him. They've got an offensive line that can protect QB's (which is why Trent Green could be back there until he's 100 years old), and Trent doesn't have much time left in the league.

I agree that basically he's no good here. The people who hate him will never like him no matter what, and the players just no longer respond to him, especially seeing how they respond and talk about McNair.

It is what it is, you know?

GreenWave52

08-15-2006, 10:00 PM

Ouch. That Boller pass looked like Kyle wasn't even trying. On the flip side, that was a great in stride deep ball by McNair.

Ravensarge

08-15-2006, 11:50 PM

OMG....I love my Ravens but....Boller should be cut (OUCH!!) St. Pierre, IMO, looked better and after Thursday I think Drew will do the same!!!!

TTRaven

08-16-2006, 04:51 AM

OMG....I love my Ravens but....Boller should be cut (OUCH!!) St. Pierre, IMO, looked better and after Thursday I think Drew will do the same!!!!

There's no reason to out right cut Kyle Boller. You can't go into a season with Brian St. Pierre and Drew Olson as the back-ups to Mcnair. There's a reason why Olson wasn't drafted and did not see time Friday. While Boller didn't look like anything special, he still out performed St. Pierre last Friday.

FellsPointRaven

08-16-2006, 09:59 AM

Plus St Pierre was going against THIRD stringers for his outing in the fourth quarter. I agree that even though Kyle didn't look great, he still looked like our second best QB. He's still under contract and should be our back-up this season.

I just hope to God he builds some confidence by having some decent turnouts in the next three pre-season games. He needs building up mentally more than anything right now.

postalworker

08-16-2006, 11:46 AM

I've always been a Boller supporter, but at this point, it seems like he's just mentally shot. If he had sat for a year and learned, who knows? He might have been great. He's a tought competitor and seems like a great guy, so it really sucks to see how this has turned out.

Maybe if he had better coaching, a more capable offense around him early on... I don't know. The guy's shown flashes- he looked like Brett Favre in his prime for those two games last season. But, he's just too inconsistent.

I agree, Kansas City would be a good place for him.

That said, I'd like to see him maybe get another shot here.

StingerNLG

08-16-2006, 11:48 AM

And herein lies the ultimate problem for Boller. From the minute his name was called in the draft, parts of the fanbase have outright hated him. That will never change. And as long as he is a member of the Baltimore Ravens, people are going to scream to cut him after every bad practice pass. It's just the way it is.

Honestly the fact that he hasn't given the fans the finger yet (like Jake Plummer did in Denver a couple years ago) is absolutely amazing to me. He takes every piece of seeting hatred for him and STILL wants to be a part of the team. I couldn't do it. And I think a new team with a chance to compete for the job in a city that really doesn't know much about him might just be what he needs at this point. Or like I said, go to Kansas City, sit behind Trent Green for a year, and then get out there. Might do his career a ton of good.

RavenMad2099

08-16-2006, 12:10 PM

And herein lies the ultimate problem for Boller. From the minute his name was called in the draft, parts of the fanbase have outright hated him.
While that's true of some, it's not true of everyone.
I gave Boller every chance to develop into something, and was once considered part of the Hugger crew. I didn't give up on him until last year.

Or like I said, go to Kansas City, sit behind Trent Green for a year, and then get out there. Might do his career a ton of good.
You might get your wish. This year or the year after will be Boller's last year with the Ravens unless he really turns around.

As far as where we go from here, I believe McNair will be our starter for at least the next two or three years. Drafting a QB to sit behind him is a risky affair. I'd rather get a young backup with promise from another team who has already shown ability in the NFL. Then again, maybe the FO will go after another vet with starting experience once McNair is gone.

I know one thing: I hate knowing that the talent of someone like Matt Schaub is being absolutely wasted in Atlanta behind Michael Vick. I don't really care if the Ravens get him or not (and at this point, I know they won't)...I just want to see my favorite UVa QB get a starting job somewhere so he can show the league what he's capable of.

RavenTD

08-16-2006, 01:11 PM

We all want to see a young QB grow and develope in purple & black.And lead this franchise for 5-7 years as starter.Heaven.

As we all know,drafting that stud is hit and miss.Rather let some other team do all the hard work,and then steal that player off that teams roster when the opportunity presents itself.

I would have loved Redman,or Boller to be that guy.But it wasn't to be.And
the search for a QB goes on for the future.

StingerNLG

08-16-2006, 01:59 PM

Agreed on both counts. And it sucks because Ravenmadd of all people you've always challenged my support of Boller so you know until McNair became the starter he was my guy no matter what. That of course changed when McNair got here, but that never turned me into a Boller hater.

But the reality is what it is. And it's going to basically take Thursday night, the last two PS games, and some great play when needed for me to think his future could still be on this team. Because right now I firmly believe there is something sticking up in his head that he just can't get over, and being a human being I imagine the pressure of the city and such has to weigh on him. Makes him overtry or force things and he just can't seem to get that under control.

There is no doubt in my mind he has the physical tools. That ball was behind Williams a little bit, but it got there in a hurry. But until that mental hurdle comes down, his development just isn't going to happen in a Ravens uniform.

As for Matt Schaub, I'm sure he's frustrated. I would be too. You also know how I feel about Michael Vick, and I am sure deep down Schaub thinks or knows he's the better all around QB. But there is no way Atlanta will even give him a SHOT at competing while having to fork over half the gold in Georgia to pay Vick's salary. When is his contract up?

RavenTD

08-16-2006, 02:05 PM

We must be looking for the next Jake Delhomme.

RavenMad2099

08-16-2006, 02:21 PM

As for Matt Schaub, I'm sure he's frustrated. I would be too. You also know how I feel about Michael Vick, and I am sure deep down Schaub thinks or knows he's the better all around QB. But there is no way Atlanta will even give him a SHOT at competing while having to fork over half the gold in Georgia to pay Vick's salary. When is his contract up?
This is the last year Schaub is under contract.
He would be a fool to re-sign with Atlanta. He'll have to go somewhere else to land a starter's job...but with the way Vick runs, who knows? Maybe he’ll get hurt and Schaub will play Tom Brady to Vick's Bledsoe.

StingerNLG

08-16-2006, 02:48 PM

He would be a fool to re-sign with Atlanta. He'll have to go somewhere else to land a starter's job...but with the way Vick runs, who knows? Maybe he’ll get hurt and Schaub will play Tom Brady to Vick's Bledsoe.

I would agree. And that will hurt the Falcons a great deal, especially if Vick never really learns how to pass the ball effectively. Then they have no one to turn to.

The question then is who is going to be looking for a starting QB next year? Would Schaub come here knowing he has to sit again for another 2 years?

Yipicya

08-16-2006, 04:12 PM

So what happens if McNair gets hurt?

GreenWave52

08-16-2006, 04:41 PM

So what happens if McNair gets hurt?
Kyle's history says that we should play .500 ball. If its for 4 games or less we will be fine, if its more then that we could be in trouble.

After this year we will need to find a new #2. Unfortunately the Matt Schaub's and Jake Delhomme's of the world don't come free very often. I suspect Schaub will end up on a team with no clear starter. Someone like Cleveland, Detroit, Buffalo (they will sour on Losman this year), or Oakland. Buffalo and Detroit are my top 2 guesses.

If he is willing to come here and sit behind McNair for 1, maybe 2 years then I'd love to have him.

lance1086

08-16-2006, 04:41 PM

So what happens if McNair gets hurt?
Hurt? You mean an injury? EDIT BY DABRUISE: RAVENS 24x7 IS A NO SMACK ZONE

:179422:

purplepoe

08-16-2006, 06:35 PM

Boller was screwed from Day 1.

There are many reasons why IMO.

1. He was obviously drafted too high. I think it's pretty safe to say that even the biggest Boller lover would concede that he wasn't worthy of a top 20 pick. If Boller was a later round pick I absolutely think he'd be in a better spot right now. The expectations for a 1st round QB are extremely high.

2. We traded away a pick to get him. Not 2 first rounders like so many people say. We trade ONE 2nd round pick to get him. Even so, that also added to the scrutiny.

3. Starting Boller. It's sad really, but Boller was the best option even after holding out of camp. The FO F'd up so much by not having someone besides Chris Redman on this team. How many rookie QBs start right away? Very few. And we start Boller after holding out? Of all the decisions this team has made, that one was the worst IMO.

4. Timing. Boller was drafted by us when we were pretty much set to make a playoff run. If this team were rebuilding, Boller could've been part of that. But he was expected to lead a veteran team to the playoffs in year one. Again, the FO dropped the ball in their thinking.

5. Injuries. To me, the best Boller looked in a Ravens uniform (besides last year's final games) was the game leading up to and the Rams game in 03. Then he got hurt. I don't think Boller is a franchise QB by any means but that setback along with last year's toe injury made the climb up the mountain too long.

So now we're sitting here in year 4 and Boller is now backing up McNair. I've been Boller's biggest critic and have never hated the guy. I think alot of fans turned on him quickly which is the nature of the business as a QB in the NFL. I wanted like hell for him to be the guy. It would have made our collective lives easier, that's for sure. But in the final analysis (yea, it's final), Boller just isn't mentally suited for the NFL. I know he could go someplace else for a few years and maybe hang on but his complete lack of feel for the game is what is most disturbing.

The pocket presence and poise are SO lacking that I really don't think that any change of scenary can change that.

We'll see. I really hope McNair can stay healthy for the entire season because I just don't think Kyle can come in during a game and get it done. He has always started slowly, whether at the beginning of a season or coming off an injury.

PP

StingerNLG

08-16-2006, 06:55 PM

Rack purplepoe as usual. But:

1. He was obviously drafted too high. I think it's pretty safe to say that even the biggest Boller lover would concede that he wasn't worthy of a top 20 pick. If Boller was a later round pick I absolutely think he'd be in a better spot right now. The expectations for a 1st round QB are extremely high.

That is right, but Green Bay was prepared to move up and get him above 20 until they found out the Ravens were going to grab him. And after the combine they thought he'd be too expensive to jump into the top 10. I read that in a newspaper article last year. Pittsburgh was also interested in Boller but apparently went with Maddox because of his XFL experience (which to me is just hilarious).

purplepoe

08-16-2006, 07:04 PM

That is right, but Green Bay was prepared to move up and get him above 20 until they found out the Ravens were going to grab him. And after the combine they thought he'd be too expensive to jump into the top 10. I read that in a newspaper article last year. Pittsburgh was also interested in Boller but apparently went with Maddox because of his XFL experience (which to me is just hilarious).

Oh, I don't think the Ravens were the only team that wanted Boller. It's not the first time a QB has been overhyped and drafted too high. It's more the norm than the exception really.

PP

StingerNLG

08-16-2006, 07:25 PM

It's not the first time a QB has been overhyped and drafted too high.

Michael Vick. :)

Disclaimer: MY opinion only. Hehehe

purplepoe

08-16-2006, 07:36 PM

Just look at 1999.

Couch
Smith
McNown

All drafted higher than Boller.

Vick is overhyped but he's also gotten to an NFC Championship.

Some guys just totally flame out.

PP

camdenyard

08-16-2006, 09:24 PM

I've always been a Boller supporter, but at this point, it seems like he's just mentally shot.

Hopefully he doesn't go "postal". LOL...

StingerNLG

08-16-2006, 09:48 PM

Vick is overhyped but he's also gotten to an NFC Championship.

He has, but he did it very one-dimensionally. And in the last season teams have figured out how to contain him, they've forced him to rely on his arm. And we've seen how that has worked out. 8-8 and a 73.1 QB rating.

Which isn't exactly in stark contrast to Boller's 71.8 rating from this year, if we're going off raw numbers.

IMHO and just IMHO, I believe "The Michael Vick Experience" is quickly coming to an end.

purplepoe

08-16-2006, 10:37 PM

IMHO and just IMHO, I believe "The Michael Vick Experience" is quickly coming to an end.

I dunno about an end but the pressure down there is huge now.

That contract is gonna look ALOT bigger if they have another disappointing season.

PP

Mista T

08-17-2006, 01:20 PM

Re: The debate is over

Yes, he certainly can dump of to TEs and FBs with accuracy and can maneuver his body. But let's see if McNair can drill a few balls more than 10 yards - in competition - before declaring the debate to be over.;)

B-more Ravor

08-17-2006, 02:21 PM

Damn, T, you're not willing to give an inch are ya?!?!? ;)

RavenTD

08-17-2006, 02:25 PM

The thing that gets me about the NFL.Are these great college QB's who flop in the NFL.And they are passed around the NFL holding clipboards. The GM's
think that their team will be the one to bring back the college glory days to these flop QB's.Then they have to go in after the starter goes down.And they suck like they always have.But another team will pick that QB up,and think wait a minute he may blossom with us.In other words just cut the crap.

Of course Kyle never really even had that much success at California.So was his value all based on his physical tools.And not his mental ones?

And MistaT,as anyone from YBR can tell us,no QB debate is ever over.:179421:

Greg

08-18-2006, 11:52 AM

McNair is obviously the superior QB. He handles himself in the pocket much better. Boller has one issue, his brain is going 1000 miles an hour, if he can learn to slow down himself he could be good. When he does play with poise he is very good, but it is sporadic.

That being said, if Boller had McNair's performance last night I have no doubt the Boller Bashers would be out in full force once again calling for his execution. McNair had a good game but tripped over himself once and the fumble was a result of him not being aware of the pocket and holding the ball too long. To his credit he stood in there under control despite his pocket collapsing.

Boller played pretty damn well. If we go by QB rating he is having a very nice pre-season. Isn't rating the sole marker when we use Boller's career mark?

http://www.nfl.com/stats/leaders/NFL/PYDS/2006/pre

StingerNLG

08-18-2006, 11:59 AM

Well, I'll say this. I saw some new things last night I didn't see before. And tonight I will start making my video clips. But on either the TD pass, or one of his other good passes, he did something I think many of us haven't seen before. Pressure came right at him, and he SIDESTEPPED RIGHT. Then instead of taking off like usual, he set himself, looked downfield, and fired the ball. And on top of that, he lead DVD on almost all the throws. Once maybe even a little too much, but there was NO WAY the defender would even have had a shot at it.

And on his TD pass he looked off the DB's to the left before firing the ball into the endzone. That was huge.

Maybe McNair is starting to talk to him about things. It wasn't a 100% turnaround because he did still do a couple things that he's known to do. A couple of times he pulled out of the pocket way to early in fear. But on the other side he took a HORRIBLE snap and turned it into positive yards.

I'm not ready to jump back on the rah rah train just yet. But you have to admit what you saw last night was highly encourgaging. Last night at least for that time, he looked like a QB.

Dabruise

08-18-2006, 12:01 PM

Greg I gotta disagree. I watched very closely and I saw only once where Boller unlocked from his primary receiver much less looked off anyone. IMO, this contributed to a couple of the sacks. He was so fixed on one rec., he couldn't see of feel the pressure. The Eagles could also send the world because they realized he's never make them pay with a quick hitter.

If he'd been playing against first team DB's he would have been picked off a couple of times. i think everyone will see it once they take another look at the film. Boller was Boller he made some nice passes, some poor ones but he never went through his progressions, never sniffed out the defense, did very little play calling at the line and did the deer in the headlights thing. He's too far into his career to be the deer. He should be the hunter now.

McNair has the eyes of a hunter, looking for an edge a way to destroy you. Kyle looks like he's hoping to complete a pass. (against 3rd stringers).

GreenWave52

08-18-2006, 12:05 PM

I agree with you Sting that Boller played well last night, but the only thing consistant about Kyle is his inconsistancy. It's important to see if he can build off the strides he made yesterday.

I hope like hell he does, but I'm not holding my breath.

StingerNLG

08-18-2006, 12:29 PM

Greg I gotta disagree. I watched very closely and I saw only once where Boller unlocked from his primary receiver much less looked off anyone. IMO, this contributed to a couple of the sacks. He was so fixed on one rec., he couldn't see of feel the pressure. The Eagles could also send the world because they realized he's never make them pay with a quick hitter.

I've got video clips coming that will dispute that though Dabruise. One of the replays shows his pocket awareness from right behind him at field level and you could see it. In the touchdown pass you can see his head looking at the left sideline before locking onto DVD and throwing that pass.

Was it all night? No. Was it better than it's been in a long time? Yes.

Greg

08-18-2006, 01:29 PM

I think Boller's rep has more to do with the criticism than his performance. For example, in the Giants game he clearly, on ALL THREE PASSES to the RBs in the flat (Swing or outlet) he was first looking downfield, then turned, spotted the RB and threw. The DB had read the RB apparently, or had studied film well,and immediately closed in every case. But the announcers then start talking about Boller staring down the back and giving it away. I replay it on TiVo like 10 times and each and every replay he looks downfield first, for quite a while AAMOF. This is a case of his rep getting him undeserved criticism.

Boller also made a very good throw into the end zone over Wilcox. Wilcox couldn't get his feet set to jump for the ball but it was very well thrown (I am going strictly but eye sight and not from film yet) .

Ravenator

08-18-2006, 01:31 PM

Boller was Boller he made some nice passes, some poor ones but he never went through his progressions, never sniffed out the defense, did very little play calling at the line and did the deer in the headlights thing. He's too far into his career to be the deer. He should be the hunter now.

I agree and disagree with this statement a little bit. On several plays, Boller would step back look down field, check down a reciever and then throw. The thing that still bothers me about Kyle is that there were a few occassions where he was thinking run first then pass. As for looking like a deer in headlights, thats because our second string Offensive line is horrendous. Where I sit at the ravens games i had a few angles on plays where the blitzing backer wasn't touched and Kyle did the smart thing, tucked the ball and took the sack rather then trying to force something.

Is Kyle going to be good, who knows but I hope they don't give up on him quite yet. I know many members of the team dont believe in him but if you look at the players who were the forerunners for this belief are at the end of their prime or careers. Namely Ray Lewis. I believe that the Ravens should offer Boller a new contract at the end of the year and inform him that it is entirely for back up purposes. Kyle could do some good behind McNair the next two or three season and then become a talented QB.

BirdFan

08-18-2006, 02:19 PM

I wish I could post a picture of a page, but at the moment, Kyle is ahead of Steve in QB rankings and Steve has only played with the first string o-line. No, I'm not saying Kyle is really a better QB than Steve, I'm just saying that you shouldn't write Kyle off yet. He'll be a fine backup this year.

http://www.nfl.com/stats/playersort/NFL/QB-PASSING/2006/pre

Dabruise

08-18-2006, 03:41 PM

Greg, I actually think Boller may have played a better game against the Giants. He seemed more comfortable and fluid. I could care less about him falling down. What Kyle has always lacked IMO is the confidence to be a weapon. He seems to always be looking over his shoulder, figureatively more than literally. Actually, Kyle has become in some ways one of the better QBs we've had here. In many ways he was much better even than Dilfer. What he's lacking is leadership. Trent was terribly inconsistent and was prone to a blunder but when he went onto the field he was in charge of leading his team. Boller seems to be simply a cog trying to do his part well.

StingerNLG

08-18-2006, 03:51 PM

What Kyle has always lacked IMO is the confidence to be a weapon. He seems to always be looking over his shoulder, figureatively more than literally.

Now that I agree with. It's like the kid who so badly wants to make his parents happy that he overdoes everything. And it makes him so hyper that he can't go through the natural moves of a QB. I've never doubted his physical skills. It's all mental at this point. I always feel like as soon as he learns to just calm down, it's all going to click for him. No more 7 step jackrabbit drops, crazy quick throws, etc: It just isn't happening here.

But I think this game was the far better game than last week. And he did it this week under some tough circumstances.

What he's lacking is leadership.

Yeah, and really no one to teach it to him. He can't learn to be a leader from Travis Taylor and Chris Redman. And maybe that's something McNair can teach him how to be. Who knows.

crazyraven

08-18-2006, 04:12 PM

Yeah, and really no one to teach it to him. He can't learn to be a leader from Travis Taylor and Chris Redman. And maybe that's something McNair can teach him how to be. Who knows

Boller has played QB at muliple levels before being drafted into the NFL so he was an effective leader--to some degree. The position demands that you be a leader. That's why its a tough sell to say that he has to be taught how to lead by another player. He can lead because he has done it, now doing it effectively I think is the question.

The good news is that he played satifactory last night so there may be something to watching a Vet play. If this continues the true test is for it to spill over when he plays with the Starting team. Time will tell. :34853_hammer:

RavenTD

08-18-2006, 04:58 PM

The good news is that he played satifactory last night

That is all we need from the backup Qb.We need to see those signs that he can carry the flow of the game if McNair goes down.Its all about keeping on an even keel.Any positives from Kyle from the preseason can only be a good sign for any Raven fan.
So he may not be the level of QB that can carry a team.But if he can only hold his own,when he needs to.Damage limitation.

StingerNLG

08-18-2006, 05:26 PM

Boller has played QB at muliple levels before being drafted into the NFL so he was an effective leader--to some degree. The position demands that you be a leader. That's why its a tough sell to say that he has to be taught how to lead by another player. He can lead because he has done it, now doing it effectively I think is the question.

Well, but being a leader in the NFL I think is still different than leading in College. And even McNair, who there is no arguement is a true leader, had to learn that in his beginnings. Part of it was not starting right away. Part of it was having someone there who had been there already.

Think of it in business terms. Anyone can be a worker. But you have to learn to be a manager. The best way to do that while you are making your way up the ladder is to see how your own manager does it. Pending of course he is doing it right himself.

I have no idea what went on after the preseason game in practice. Maybe McNair worked with Kyle on game film and showing him where to throw the ball and lead the receiver. Maybe they looked over Kyle's film and they talked about when to break the pocket and when not to.

At least, I really hope that's what's happening.